Captain Christopher Richard Pike

"I am intrigued by her."

The question of mutiny is for Christopher to decide, ultimately. Spock has heard what he needs for the moment, for his own judgment.

But the question of the Narada herself...

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Jim smiled, not at all holding back. "She's something," he agreed. "I become more impressed by her all the time."

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"Why are you so impressed?" Pike asked out of a true curiosity. "Considering the reports and visuals of the ship itself, it must be a highly developed computer. A massive intelligence backing up a possible newly born sentience would result in something like what you've told us."

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Jim smiled, openly self-deprecating though it was a sort of self-deprecation that wasn't at all sorry. "I'm blessed or cursed, whichever way you want to look at it, with an almost endless capacity for being impressed. Predicting something isn't always the same as experiencing it. If you asked me 'what would a ship like this be like, as a sentient being?', it's quite possible I'd have described something like her. But it doesn't touch that sense of discovery. I wouldn't want it to, either. My curiosity is valuable. It drives me. And there's a curiosity in her, a hunger, I can't help but be moved by."

It was a quality he valued not only in himself, but as had to be obvious, in his officers and lovers as well.

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Jim also seemed to have a constant capacity for surprise as well. He spoke clean and well, even on subjects that Pike might have found someone else an utter fool for. The ship, as what he could tell, had been a part of a gruesome attack. Most men, and he suspected that the younger version of the crews played into this, would have wanted revenge and would have been unable to feel similarly to Jim.

"Do you believe it works under its captain's orders?" Pike questioned, leaning forward. "Its curiosity could be someone other then its own."

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It was... fascinating to watch his captain in this capacity. Christopher did not take orders well, did not suffer fools, did not often find his equal.

If Spock had not already felt some small respect for James T. Kirk, he would have, watching the two of them.

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"It could," Jim hazarded. "But the sense I get is that she acted against orders, or at the very least without them, to send us back. To request Spock's presence on her ship. The fact that I consider him safe enough, for the moment, is testament to that. She desired the presence of a man whom she believes capable of assisting her crew, despite the fact that he's the very man her master is bent on destroying. Which should worry me, and it does. But I don't know what she was when Nero destroyed Vulcan or threatened Earth. And she has the capacity to grow and determine her own course. Currently she claims not to go against her masters' orders, but she's edging around them in ways that suggest she is capable of self-determination."

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They should destroy the ship and its masters and be done with it. Pike murmured into Spock's mind, but kept his expression the same as he replied aloud, "You have very different ways in this universe. Very, very different."

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I understand why they do. She is... fascinating. And I would not care for our Enterprise to receive such treatment should she attain this state of sentience.

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"The Federation is based on diversity and cooperation," he said. "And my personal philosophy is one that believes that people, and things, can change. That the situation must be re-evaluated as it does."

He did not say that his ways may very well be in conflict with those commanding this ship. Or that Pike and Spock's continued liberty was due, in part, to that belief.

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Fascinating as she might be, she still provides a heavy threat. Pike replied, Though I can see that this is going to be a heavy source of contention. The revenge of one universe against the philosophy of another.

"You say it's based on diversity and cooperation," Curious how different it was then the Empire, but as he was learning, far from unexpected, "Will the crimes of the ship and its masters simply be forgiven?" His brows rose; could they be so compassionate as to forgive and forget?

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Jim shook his head, frowning. "Hardly that," he said. "I'm not naive, nor stupid. I would have to be so, to assume that situations change for no reason. I'd also be dead. We have a justice system. We also have asylums and hospitals for the mentally ill and the criminally insane. Nero's crimes can never be forgiven. Nor should they be. But he can be treated with compassion, and he can be given the opportunity to repent. To ask for help. What's more, the ship itself and Nero's second-in-command are still ambiguous in their own guilt or madness. In her case, her sentience. I simply don't know--and not knowing, I can't condemn them outright. I don't believe in 'following orders' as an excuse, but it is an explanation. And I don't yet know whose crimes are whose. Or whether repentance is possible."

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This then was the essential difference - in the Empire they would strike at any sign of threat. James T. Kirk took risks - displayed strength not through immediate action but through waiting.

Fascinating.

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It was difficult for Pike to wrap his mind around. He had grown up, been trained, and commanded in a universe where things like this not only did not exist, but even the closest thoughts were considered weak and foolish. He was trying to understand though, to be able to comprehend it from another view point, even if he did not agree. He raised a hand gesturing with a curve of his fingers in a hesitant movement.

"You will have to take this slower with me, I'm afraid," He smirked, just slightly, as he admitted to wanting to understand. It put him at a disadvantage he would never normally show. "If his crimes can never be forgiven, nor should they be, as you've stated, then what good would an asylum or hospital for the mentally ill do? Even if he could be cured of his madness, which stands to be tested as even possible, he would still be a criminal. Why does your Federation offer compassion to someone who, to put it bluntly, blew up an entire planet?"

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"Because we believe in the value of life." Jim was fully cognizant of what it meant, for Pike to be having this discussion with him--for Spock to be looking on, no doubt taking it all in to be fully considered. "We don't always agree on everything, naturally. And vengeance is a human quality. It's one we try to mitigate, however, because it rarely achieves our ends. We believe it is better for a man to have the opportunity to repent, to develop himself, to find a place in the universe that is not destructive. We cannot know what value he might find in life, or might be found in him. I realize this is hard to believe. I'm not sure I can imagine what that value might be, in Nero's case. But if I deny him that compassion, if I begin picking and choosing who deserves justice and mercy and who does not, then I become what they are. If I decide who lives and dies, I, too, am corrupted."

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He still did not understand. His gaze slid away, staring at a wall as he concentrated on Jim's words. "If Nero should repent," He said cautiously, "What good would it achieve? Would your Federation free him? What if there is no value left in a man who creates genocide?"

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"It might do him some good," Jim said quietly. "I don't know if he would go free. It would depend, largely, on him. On his progress, and on his willingness to change. There is the complication of Romulus not being part of the Federation--we technically have no jurisdiction over him, and his incursion into Federation space, even aside from his crimes, is grounds for an interstellar incident. It's delicate.

"But I am not the one to dictate whether there is value in a man who has committed genocide. The most vile man I have ever known was also the most brilliant actor. The most destructively insane, one of the greatest tacticians of our history. I am not a psychologist. Nor a judge. But even knowing what they did... even wanting, in the former case, to take my own revenge, I could not. Knowing that the worst crimes can begin with one man thinking he has the right to dictate whether another lives."

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"We believe that a man must stand up and judge, sometimes even against his own will. Out there," He flicked a single finger in the direction of the window, indicating space, "There is no Empire and Federation, only what people like you and I bring on our ships in the form of the strength of our people, firepower, and beliefs. Every day we must judge. Judge if an action is the best choice to make, if another ship or race is a threat to our people, or any millions of other choices big or small. You can never say you are not a judge."

Pike locked eyes with Jim, "Or you would be lying to yourself. You and I are judges every day. We have the lives of our crew in our hands, at the very least. Our choices judge, sometimes, always, judge whether or not our crew lives or dies."

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Jim spread his hands.

"You're absolutely right," he said. "I didn't mean to absolve myself of that responsibility. I feel it keenly. I've killed. I've allowed members of my crew to die. I've regretted every life lost. One is constantly weighing the lives one is responsible for against the threat offered by those who insist on being our enemies. I do have some autonomy from Starfleet in those choices, though I answer to them when all's said and done. That responsibility is mine. But I see a tremendous difference between those decisions made on the fly, to ensure the safety of the greatest number of people, and those made when one has breathing room. In cold blood, I could never sanction murder."

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"In the public file about the fight against Nero, it says that the Enterprise destroyed the Narada by forcing it through a black hole." Pike could remember it distinctly and was fairly sure it was doctored for the public eye instead of the full truth about what happened. "Which, if they left, presumably thought him to be dead."

Pike leaned forward, putting his elbow on his knee, "Would you have sanctioned that murder?" He hardly considered it murder, but it was killing someone nonetheless.

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"Yes."

Jim had thought about this already.

"Nero was actively seeking the destruction of Earth. Jim offered him mercy. Nero refused it. In that moment, in that situation, the options were limited. Self-defense was predominant. The entire situation is horrific and regrettable. I admit to wishing Nero dead. I wish, further, that he'd never come here. Never split off the timeline to one where I grew up without a father, where Spock lost his mother and planet in one feel swoop. But it's done now. And now, in this moment, with the Narada offering no immediate threat and showing signs of change, with Nero's second in command doing the same, with Nero wounded, their destruction would be murder."

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"But now do you know that Nero possess no threat? Is it only because the manifestation of his ship is currently held hostage on this one?" Pike raised an eyebrow. "He came after your captain, or friend, or both, and from what I witnessed, tortured them the the brink of death. Only timing on the rescue mission saved them from death. What if he had killed the two Kirks? Would you still want him to live?"

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"Everyone poses a threat," Jim replied significantly. "The matter at hand is whether it is immediate. And it is less wanting him to live... and more not believing the decision to kill him is ours to make unless that threat is direct. What may be difficult to understand is that I have no personal investment in Nero's life. I hate him, to the extent I feel I can hate anyone. I hate what he did to Jim, to George, to Vulcan. It's difficult for me to attach much value to his life in the individual sense. But if I abandon my principles, I am less than myself. My concern is general until the specific threat outweighs it. If he had died in our rescue attempt, I would have regretted it less than perhaps my vehemence now might suggest. But he lived. As did Ayel, and the ship, and the two Kirks. And the situation we must deal with now deserves careful thought."

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"A madman is sitting at the trigger of a weapon that could destroy this ship if it were not for hostage-taking." Pike said with a raised brow, "Somehow, I fail to see how this is no longer a direct threat. Would you not be less then yourself if he were to do something else violent against this crew, another planet, or anyone else, knowing you could have stopped him?"

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